70 replies to this topic

[heckler]

i'm in with skaven with the lore of hugs and the lore of kisses.

[Matt]

Wolf Patrick, on 15 June 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

I'll see if I can clear things up a bit... Each Gambit applies to both your army and your opponent's.

So, using Bob's example since we played last weekend- He would play my Dwarfs using the Miraglian Defense to try and gain VP's off of all my war machines, meanwhile knowing that he would have very few (if any) war machines of his own to lose points on. While, I would bring something like The Witch Hunter's Opening that would effect his army a lot more than mine.

It's just another strategy that doesn't really limit players to what they can bring in their army, but at the same time there may be consequences for what you bring...

Also, it isn't a points reduction, but rather extra VP's that are added into your game. The Gambit VP's are added up before you even roll the dice so you know where you stand and why. I suspect that this may make some players play more agressive to try and get those points back, while others may play a more conservative game and protect their bonus.

So if I ran skaven with max engineers and warlords, I could start in the hole 1000 points.
Good to see that the league to back to valuing a steam tank the same as a pump wagon and a goblin big boss is equal to an exaulted champion
-Matt

[Andy C.]

Matt, on 16 June 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

So if I ran skaven with max engineers and warlords, I could start in the hole 1000 points.
Good to see that the league to back to valuing a steam tank the same as a pump wagon and a goblin big boss is equal to an exaulted champion
-Matt

well i think the kicker would be that if someone punished you for bringing war machines, then they couldnt do it to another player when it might be more needed, placing them at a disadvantage

[Druchii Love]

Since it's based on "points", it's more like four of those Big Bosses are valued the same as that Exhalted Champion.  Or three of your Pump Wagons will equal a Steam Tank.  Since you can use smaller increments of increases in each area, your Orcs & Goblins are actually in better shape than a lot of other armies.

[Matt]

Druchii Love, on 16 June 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

Since it's based on "points", it's more like four of those Big Bosses are valued the same as that Exhalted Champion.  Or three of your Pump Wagons will equal a Steam Tank.  Since you can use smaller increments of increases in each area, your Orcs & Goblins are actually in better shape than a lot of other armies.

7/8th of the Gambits is based on model count.  A 60 goblin warlord gives up the same gambit points as a greater daemon.
If you want to minimize points given to opponents, run death stars.
The 8th is points on magic itmes, which also favors fewer more powerful units.
Guess we're counting on teclis and slaans to level the field.

-Matt

[AllTheWayUlthwe]

I know you've all been waiting on pins and needles for Beav to make a decision. I am taking Brettonians with the lores of Life and Heavens.

Beav

[Krieg XXIX]

I am in.  Playing Empire with Light and Shadow.

[Druchii Love]

The Chaos Dwarves have begun their march to war with the lores of Hashut and Metal!

[Solrac]

Count me in with... er... Ummm... I've magic ready to use, oh and weapons.

More extreme details to come

[TileaG]

I'm in with beastmen. Shadow and beasts

Spencer

[ghoulking]

For those folks looking to join the league, please PM me with your contact info (Phone and e-mail).

Matt, are you suggesting instead of model count, for some of the gambits using points cost instead?

The idea of the gambits is to get people to shake up their builds a bit.  If you know what your opponent likes to bring a lot, you can use a gambit against that.  If your opponent is smart he'll change his build to be less vulnerable.

And yes, we've lowered the army size from 2400 to 2200.  We just wanted to have a little variation, so people don't ever start feeling like they're in a rut.

[heckler]

i think quite clearly the way around it is to bring 150 stormvermin in a single unit, only giving up 100vp's right off the bat.

[Matt]

ghoulking, on 19 June 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

For those folks looking to join the league, please PM me with your contact info (Phone and e-mail).

Matt, are you suggesting instead of model count, for some of the gambits using points cost instead?

The idea of the gambits is to get people to shake up their builds a bit.  If you know what your opponent likes to bring a lot, you can use a gambit against that.  If your opponent is smart he'll change his build to be less vulnerable.

And yes, we've lowered the army size from 2400 to 2200.  We just wanted to have a little variation, so people don't ever start feeling like they're in a rut.

I was guessing the intent of the gambits was to shake up peoples builds, but I don't think the gambits are going to do that.
Since two units of 30 get dinked twice as much as a unit of 60; and two level 2 wizards get dinked the same as the superior single level 4, it would make the most since under the current system for me to run a Slaan Mage priest BSB fully tooled up, leading a unit of ~50 temple guard.  Or a savage orc great shaman leading a huge unit of savage orc big uns.
It would be a bad idea for me to use 2 units of 30 arrer boys, which you almost never see on the table, as I'd get dinked on both large units and as shooters.

If you want people to really think about the builds and mix it up:
Witch Hunt: All wizards award half vp in value.  If you only have a single wizard, he awards his full value.
X-Wing for the win: Bonus victory points equal to your most expensive unit.
Back to the Stone Age: All chariots and warmachines give up bonus half vp.
Spice of Life: Duplicate special or rare choices award victory points equal to the cost of the more expensive duplicate.
Game of Thrones: All characters (heroes, lords, dark elf assassin, goblin sneaks) give up half vp, if you only have a single character, he awards his full value.
Fight in the Shade: Every unit with a ranged attack gives up 50 points, or the most expensive unit gives up it's full value, whichever is more.
David and Golith: Cavalry, Monsters, and monstrous cavalry award half victory points.  If only a single unit is present, it awards full value.
Magic Lamp: Bonus victory points equal to points spent on magic items, bloodlines, gifts of chaos, marks of chaos, big names, disciplines, or anything that isn't not plain old mundane gear.

Alternatively, I'd drop a 400 point cap on any none character choice.  
Generally, more units that are smaller make for a more enjoyable game than a match of "Can you stop this deathstar?"

-Matt

[westcoasthammer]

i do agree on a point limit on units and 400 - 450 seems like a good spot but i can live without it. Also the gambits are great and a fun addition and think they could become a nice permanent addition. However i do wanna bring up one concern, no irresistable force. I dont agree with this idea at all. It neuters the magic phase in many respects and not in a good way. yes getting your general dwellered sucks, but there are other things to stop that like for example you could give LOS for certain spells, also in the games i played and people i talked to, no one really complained about the magic being to powerful. The main reason i do not like the no irresistable, is that it makes the magic phase very predictable and takes out a lot of the fun. Now let me preface this argument by first saying this, i hate chess, i do not want to play chess, i enjoy games where i do not know the outcome before i even roll a dice. that is why i like 8th edition it adds a little bit of random and makes you have to think on your toes. I played a game with wade last saturday and we played using the league rules. I do not know how he felt but each magic phase for me was incredibly boring. I knew every spell i was going to dispell and how many dice for each one before he even told me what he was going to cast. with no irresistable this is possible and what i think a lot of players are going to capitalize on. i dont have to worry about the big bad spells going off because i can scroll it or throw all my dice. but if a weak spell goes off that has no real affect than im gonna let him miscast and possibly lose the wizard with no real harm done. i believe the magic phase is a big equalizer in many matchups. for example, if i go up against 15 ogres, i better have a mindrazor, or dwellers or something similar because if i dont, i cannot touch that unit. and yes you can say well you could say the ogre player cant roll high enough to stop it but if the ogre player is smart he saves his scroll because he know nothing i have can stop his deathstar and just waits till a pivotal combat. I dont think there is a way to be perfect about this but i think it can be fixed in a better way. For example i do like giving LOS for characters for big spells. I think this is going to get abused and is going to open up new problems. Anyway just my two cents and i am deffinately excited and cant wait for the league to start.

[Mordante]

Based on only 1 game played so far under the league rules, (the one against Donovan) I have to agree with Donovan.  I had 1 shaman, 4 spells, and was never able to get off Hand or Foot of Gork even once the entire game.  Made for a boring magic phase.  His was rather boring as well.  Now, this is only based on 1 game, so I'd like to hear how many playtest games the league organizers played and what led them to this rules change.  My main issue I guess is that comp or gambits or restrictions are changes to the armies, not a big change to the basic rules of the game, whereas this is a fundamental rules change.  I'd prefer to play with the rules in the book for the most part...Unless it's against Kroak.  Wait, that is a comp issue really, so I stand by my statement.

[Marious]

Ok I am throwing in my two skulls for tomb kings with death and nekahara

Adam

[Matt]

Mordante, on 20 June 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Based on only 1 game played so far under the league rules, (the one against Donovan) I have to agree with Donovan.  I had 1 shaman, 4 spells, and was never able to get off Hand or Foot of Gork even once the entire game.  Made for a boring magic phase.  His was rather boring as well.  Now, this is only based on 1 game, so I'd like to hear how many playtest games the league organizers played and what led them to this rules change.  My main issue I guess is that comp or gambits or restrictions are changes to the armies, not a big change to the basic rules of the game, whereas this is a fundamental rules change.  I'd prefer to play with the rules in the book for the most part...Unless it's against Kroak.  Wait, that is a comp issue really, so I stand by my statement.

I saw a lot of those magic phases, and it looked like the problem wasn't the league rules, but that Donovan rolled pretty hot on the channel dice, and that you rolled like crap on the casting value.
How many times did you fail to cast the boosted warpath?  Two or Three that I saw, and I didn't see the whole game.

As for player testing that method, I got in about 8 or so games in hawaii with the same type of thing; you couldn't irresistable the big spell from any lore (though you could spells 0 through 5).  

-Matt

[westcoasthammer]

wades dice were pretty lame at times   , but still i could plan out every magic phase, and always had dice for the big spell, several magic phases i just didnt get a chance to use dice or just let him cast because he only left himself 3 or 4 dice and was willing to bet he wouldnt get the spell, and it worked all game. armies that can generate dispel dice or have multiple dispel scrolls really get a huge bump. Now im not hating this system, i only played one game and have my reservations, but i am willing to play it and see how it works. I just think its a little to far in the wrong direction, and agree with wade about not changing core rules. If the big spells are wrecking everyones hobby (which like i said, i didnt see a big issue the last two leagues), then we should find a less harsh alternative. i did see an interesting way to deal with big spells by making 3 6's irresistable and a miscast. This is still changing core rules  but still allows total power, just a lower percent. i think im just mad cuz now i cant yell MINDRAZOR!!!!! everytime my puny state troops get into combat!   anyway, interested to hear other peoples oppinions, because i love debating how BROKEN the magic phase in 8th is hahaha.

[Matt]

I'm not sold on the idea that a single caster not getting the boosted #6 spell off was a bad thing.


-Matt

[westcoasthammer]

. Trust me i wasnt complaining   . I just think the magic phase is gonna get very predictable and have little or no effect on most games, but i could b wrong. Time will tell