70 replies to this topic

[Wolf Patrick]

Kevin_Boyd, on 11 June 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

It is Daemonisim I tells ya! Pure and simple prejudice vs. Daemons! I liken it to segregated baseball of the 1930s and 40s!  

All kidding aside. I do find this 7ed hold over idealism that daemons are broken a little silly.  They are tough yes I will grant you that, but they certainly are beatable.  Ask all the Ogre players that beat them down solidly in the last league. The High Elves, yes High Elves, and Empire that beat them down in the last tournament, all while using daemon special characters.  An army is only as good as its player.  

I don't care one way or the other I just want to play, it would be nice to field the army I built for once but whatever.


Bama - Just for fun how about a friendly challenge?
You and me 2200 points of Daemons vs. what ever you are playing in the league. Other than allowing all special characters we play within the confines of the new league rules.

Hey Kevin, not to interject, but I'm not sure what you plan to prove? Is your intention to play Bama and throw the game to make Daemons look soft? Also, I wouldn't say there's a prejudice hold over against Dameons from 7th edition, because to be fair I think the strongest armies in the game are all hold-overs from 7th edition. (Daemons, Dark Elves, High Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven)

The main reason that I believe that Daemons are as strong as they are, is because their core unit choices and characters are the most powerful in the game for the points you spend. Bloodletters for example are WS 5, S 5, have magic resistance, killing blow, and are unbreakable... Heck, most Special choices in the game aren't that good! Pink Horrors can cast spells, have flaming attacks and again are unbreakable... Can Daemons be beat? Sure. We still have to roll the dice and play a scenario with terrain on the table, however when you compare the points up for what the Daemons get compared to what other armies have for choices the deck is certanily stacked in the Daemon player's hands.

When you say that Daemons are only as strong as the player behind them, I'm not sure if you're trying to down-play the army or yourself as a general? Also, I'm not sure what the last tournament is that you are referring to, but I was at the Broadside Bash where Daemons won the whole thing. (All Tzeentch and Slaanesh by the way.)

Regardless, I think you should play whatever you want to play and be happy with that. I just wouldn't look for a lot of sympathy on the "Poorly misunderstood Daemon" bandwagon anytime soon...

[Kevin_Boyd]

Sorry everyone for hijacking the thread.

I only issue the challenge to Bama because I want to play him, I understand he is a tough opponent, and he and I have never played a game head to head.  I do not count the Dark Elf/Lizardmen massacre a game because while we were in the same 3 on 3 game we never squared off against each other.  

I would never throw a game; it is just not my style.  I would just like to pit 2200 points of Daemons against a solid opponent, that he also happens to be a judge is just a bonus, and test my theory that Daemons are tough but not broken.

I was not trying to play myself down as a general.  I like to make fun challenging lists, you can ask anyone who knows me I am certainly not a “Win at all costs A-Hole” but I like to keep a game close right down to the wire.

I was talking about the last tourney at Game Empire where Empire won, and he was not using any of the new Empire toys, my Daemons placed a distant second.

I know there is no love for daemons and as I said, “I will play with or without special characters” bottom line is I just enjoy playing, and to a lesser extent debating.

[Andy C.]

My dark elves will be making a return with shadow and dark magic

[bama]

Bama - Just for fun how about a friendly challenge?
You and me 2200 points of Daemons vs. what ever you are playing in the league. Other than allowing all special characters we play within the confines of the new league rules.
[/quote]

Kevin, to be honest I hate the daemon army. It was written poorly when it came out in the Storm of Chaos book and it's 7th incarnation was disastrous. It has been a broken army since its inception. I have played fantasy since around 1996 and this is the most overpowered book i have ever seen. Yes, some armies were stronger in certain areas but daemons excelled in all of them. Even their missile troops were outstanding. I can list a litany of its advantages but I won't convince you. And as for the challenge, I will not play daemons unless I'm forced to like in a tournament or league. I have nothing against you, you have been fun to play against, I just won't play daemons for fun. I might be mistaken but I dare say that you would be hard pressed to find many people that would play a fun game against daemons.

[Kevin_Boyd]

bama, on 12 June 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Kevin, to be honest I hate the daemon army. It was written poorly when it came out in the Storm of Chaos book and it's 7th incarnation was disastrous. It has been a broken army since its inception. I have played fantasy since around 1996 and this is the most overpowered book i have ever seen. Yes, some armies were stronger in certain areas but daemons excelled in all of them. Even their missile troops were outstanding. I can list a litany of its advantages but I won't convince you. And as for the challenge, I will not play daemons unless I'm forced to like in a tournament or league. I have nothing against you, you have been fun to play against, I just won't play daemons for fun. I might be mistaken but I dare say that you would be hard pressed to find many people that would play a fun game against daemons.

That is unfortunate you feel that way.  
I like to think I play the player not the army; the army is just my opponents weapon of choice.
Who knows we may end up playing in the league.

[bama]

We will play each other, we are in the same division. It's me, you, Pat, Drew, and Donovan. As for the daemon army, I think if you asked around, most people would say that they did not like playing against them.

[Matt]

bama, on 12 June 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

We will play each other, we are in the same division. It's me, you, Pat, Drew, and Donovan. As for the daemon army, I think if you asked around, most people would say that they did not like playing against them.

I think a lot of that is a hold over from 7th edition.  In 8th, I'd play them.
-Matt

[Andy C.]

well to be fair the one thing that makes demons so bad in 8th now is large blocks of bloodletters and flamers. everything else isnt too insane

[Kevin_Boyd]

bama, on 12 June 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

We will play each other, we are in the same division...

AH-HA! It all makes perfect sense now!

[bama]

Kevin_Boyd, on 13 June 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

AH-HA! It all makes perfect sense now!

Trust me, if I had my way your maximum unit size would be 10, no magic, and you couldn't field any daemons!  

[rayman]

Ed is in with Vampire Counts.  His lores will be Vampire and another one.

[Kevin_Boyd]

bama, on 13 June 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Trust me, if I had my way your maximum unit size would be 10, no magic, and you couldn't field any daemons!  

I accept 40 5 man units of Furies it is. See you at the table.

[westcoasthammer]

Got another player for the league. Her names tiffany, im sure you guys have seen her with me, anyway shes gonna b playing dark elves with both shadow and dark. she learned everything from me so everyone BEWARE! haha

[Matt]

I took a look at my Orcs and I don't think I can have them ready in time.
So count me in with lizardmen.
Since we're doing special characters, I'll go with Heavens and Beast magic, that way I've got options for everyone.

-Matt

[CaptKurt]

Matt, on 13 June 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Since we're doing special characters, I'll go with Heavens and Beast magic, that way I've got options for everyone.

-Matt

So it looks like Tehenuin is going to be making two appearances in the league then

[G-Man]

I'll be in with Wood elves, Beast and Life.

Gordon

[Druchii Love]

I'm in!  How soon do you need to know what army I'm bringing?

[Nihmwit]

Definitely planning on joining this league!

Also going to try to get my buddy Adam in to play his Tomb Kings.

[Nihmwit]

Okay, regarding the Gambits, I would like some clarification.

We choose a gambit, and OUR score is based on our OPPONENT'S army list?
Example: I am using ogres and facing wood elves.  My gambit is Khornate Attack and his is Classical Sylvanian.  My opponent has 5 missiles units, 2 of which are over 20 models.  I have 1 unit of lead belchers.  I receive 150 points from his list, and he receives none from me (my unit not being big enough, and being the only missile troops in the army).  I receive no points from his gambit (none of his units being large enough), but he receives 100 points because 2 of my units are over 10 models (BTW, does this include characters?).  Final scores being 150 points for me, and 100 points for him.

And just out of curiousity, why the point reduction?

[Wolf Patrick]

I'll see if I can clear things up a bit... Each Gambit applies to both your army and your opponent's.

So, using Bob's example since we played last weekend- He would play my Dwarfs using the Miraglian Defense to try and gain VP's off of all my war machines, meanwhile knowing that he would have very few (if any) war machines of his own to lose points on. While, I would bring something like The Witch Hunter's Opening that would effect his army a lot more than mine.

It's just another strategy that doesn't really limit players to what they can bring in their army, but at the same time there may be consequences for what you bring...

Also, it isn't a points reduction, but rather extra VP's that are added into your game. The Gambit VP's are added up before you even roll the dice so you know where you stand and why. I suspect that this may make some players play more agressive to try and get those points back, while others may play a more conservative game and protect their bonus.