21 replies to this topic

[Kevin_Boyd]

So this came up in the monster battle that took place on Sunday.

Kurt, Tom, and Myself are of this school of thought -
"Scouts are placed after regular deployment and do not count when determining who gets +1."
pg 142 WFMRB says Characters must be placed last, so Rules As Written if Scouts counted as  being part of the deployment they would have to go down before characters.  



Bama and Phil say - "It is all deployment and Scouts count, you give up the +1 initiative by using Scouts"


I put this poll to the forum to decide which is correct?

[Mordante]

My vote is that scouts do not lose you the +1 for finishing your deployment.  The rules are not clear at all about it and it may be a hold over from 7th edition, but that's my take on it.

[Matt]

Characters must be deployed last is the best arguement I've seen.
By a strict reading of the rules, you'd deploy everything but characters and scouts, then wait for your opponent to finish deploying; then deploy scouts, and then deploy characters.
OR, scouts are not part of normal deployment.

-Matt

[CaptKurt]

RAW seems to be in conflict with itself...shocking I know..but I cannot imagine that they intended to punish you for taking scouts.

"By a strict reading of the rules, you'd deploy everything but characters and scouts, then wait for your opponent to finish deploying; then deploy scouts, and then deploy characters."

Still never been sure....why exactly this matters to GW...when you place your characters.

On the other hand, you used to be able to abuse Scout rules and place like 2 units, then the opponent places everything and finally you place all your scouts...getting the +1.

Still, it feels righter that Scouts do not count, for that matter nor should characters.

[Qrab]

Take scouts, lose the +1 on the roll to go first. It's been discussed on the Warhammer Forum

[Druchii Love]

I understand how the rule can be read to infer scouts do and do not count towards who finishes first.  I do know that 7th edition's rule (which I know isn't really relevant...) read "the player who finished their deployment first (not including scouts) may add +1 to their dice roll" and that exception for Scouts is obviously lacking in the 8th edition rules.  I'm perfectly willing to accept the rule was removed to accomodate the inclusion of 8th edition's scenarios where only half the battles require rolling for the first turn.  I don't care one way or the other but I believe internet wisdom and the ETC consider Scouts to count against the roll.

[Mordante]

Qrab, on 29 May 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Take scouts, lose the +1 on the roll to go first. It's been discussed on the Warhammer Forum

I'd hardly say that discussion was any better or more conclusive than any reasonable discussion we could have ourselves.  That it just degenerated into 5 pages of ridiculous arguing makes it pretty clear that this is not a clearly written rule.

Druchii Love, on 29 May 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

I don't care one way or the other but I believe internet wisdom and the ETC consider Scouts to count against the roll.

Isn't "internet wisdom" an oxymoron?  

[Qrab]

Wade, I didn't provide the link for any reason other than to show that it is not a clearly written rule, and how quickly the discussion can turn silly.

[Andy C.]

technically in real time scouts should be the first on the board before anything else deploys. theyre not vanguard, theyre there to look ahead, so I dont think they should count as an actual deploy

[Mordante]

Qrab, on 29 May 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Wade, I didn't provide the link for any reason other than to show that it is not a clearly written rule, and how quickly the discussion can turn silly.

Got it.  You hit that right on the head.  That was a good demonstration of why I don't go to that forum.

[Matt]

Does it really make sense that an army that has scouts forward loses the initiative against an army that has no scouts?


-Matt

[Kevin_Boyd]

Matt, on 30 May 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Does it really make sense that an army that has scouts forward loses the initiative against an army that has no scouts?

No not really.

If a player A has 5 units and scouts and player B has 12 units and no scouts it does not make sense for player A to be hidered for it.

[Qrab]

Since when has "sense" had any role in WFB?

[Kevin_Boyd]

Qrab, on 30 May 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Since when has "sense" had any role in WFB?

Haha yeah well there is that.

In reading the "Special Deployment Rules" which covers Ambushers, Scouts and Vanguard it would seem "rules as indented" are that all 3 take place outside of the scope of regular deployment rules; hence the special section devoted to these specific issues.  Of course, in the always ambiguous writing style that is GW, depending on which side of the fence you are on on the issue you could possibly glean arguments for both sides.

[Matt]

Kevin_Boyd, on 30 May 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Haha yeah well there is that.

In reading the "Special Deployment Rules" which covers Ambushers, Scouts and Vanguard it would seem "rules as indented" are that all 3 take place outside of the scope of regular deployment rules; hence the special section devoted to these specific issues.  Of course, in the always ambiguous writing style that is GW, depending on which side of the fence you are on on the issue you could possibly glean arguments for both sides.

Heh, I guess you could argue that if you have ambushers you haven't finished deploying, and as such, I get the +1 to go first.

-Matt

[Qrab]

Ambushing units are called out as not deploying at the start of the battle.

Under Vanguard, "After both sides have deployed all their other forces (including scouts), but before either side has taken a turn..."

Scouts already have the advantage of being deployed after your opponent has put his army on the table AND the ability to be placed outside of your deployment zone.

[tmr]

So you have a walk through the rule book with me. Clear your mind, don't over think, suspend pre-conception, internet wisdom, pick up the rule book and start with vocabulary and the question - Deployment pg 144 adds a +1 to the roll off if you finish deploying first.

The term "deploy last" is the key term. So the deployment ends when Characters are deployed. Characters are the last thing to go down to end deployment.(ref pg 142 alternating units). Very clear can't augue that – right?

Now Scouts – page 79 Scouts are set up after all othe rnon-Scout units from both Armies are deployed. Given that the deployment phase ends after Characters are put down – see above. Deployment has ended – last one to put characters down gets the +1. – period.

Since Scouts are deployed after Characters are put down, and Characters are the last deployment action - Scouts are not part of the deployment and do not figure into the determining+1 to roll.

Plus 1 to roll is determined by whoever put the last characters down unless over-ridden by a scenario again page 79 first paragraph.

Please critique  - but stick to the rules and the words in the rule. there are places where its not clear but in this case its clear to me - "Plus 1 to roll is determined by whoever put the last characters down unless over-ridden by a scenario again page 79 first paragraph."

[Rudedog]

I like this, can we all the San Diego players agree to play this way?

[Wolf Patrick]

I agree with Tom's wording, however I've been playing that I don't receive the +1 when using scouts and Bob stated to Cliff and myself both earlier today that Scout deployment does count against the +1.

I'd just like to get a consensus before we start the new league and going forward.

Thanks!

[tmr]

Perhaps when Bob looked at the rules he did not consider the order, maybe the Council of Cardinals could convene and see if we can get another review and come to a consenses... but when you step through the rule it all seems to work and actually make sense.

Wolf Patrick, on 10 June 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I agree with Tom's wording, however I've been playing that I don't receive the +1 when using scouts and Bob stated to Cliff and myself both earlier today that Scout deployment does count against the +1.

I'd just like to get a consensus before we start the new league and going forward.

Thanks!