26 replies to this topic

[Wolf Patrick]

So, I'm going to start off by asking if the top division is going to remain heavy as it was this last time around?

Another thing I would like to talk about is how substutite games are handled when players drop... It seems like this constantly comes up and when it happens the judges are scrambling to find a make-up player to take that person's spot. In my case this last time around, instead of facing another opponent in my division I got the wrath of Bob's Revenge with "Sauron the Ghoul King." While my situation wasn't that big of a deal, what if your strategy of using the different restrictions was based upon who you were playing? So, let's say you were expecting a fluffy opponent and saved the 300pt restriction for that one, but ended up facing Beef Cake the Mighty?

Personally, I'd suggest that if a player drops from the league, that the make-up opponent should come from his division and if there isn't a player from his division available then he should get a free win and a "Yes" for comp.

Here's why I'm leaning this way- With 8 games to make the playoffs, every game counts. To have someone who may be winless possibly play someone who may be undefeated just for the sake of doing a make-up game really is a slap in the face to the guy that's trying to complete his games where his opponent didn't. Does that make sense?

Same thing goes in a tournament... If there's an odd player, then you get to play the ringer army, which chances are isn't all that competitive and left all the baby-killer tools at home.

Granted I understand that this last league was different since we had people drop from multiple divisions. However, I think that if there is a solid protocol in place for how to handle the make-up games then maybe it wouldn't be such a scramble when this happens. Just my .02

[ghoulking]

I don't believe that anyone should ever get a free win.  

First because players pay ten bucks for 8 games.  

Secondly, with 8 games to make the playoffs, every game counts.  It's more of a slap in the face for that guy who played all 8 of his games and battled hard to get a good record... only to not make it to the playoffs because some guy had a win handed to him for free.  

And lastly, we've handed out free wins in the past to a win-less guy because his opponent dropped out.  His record ended up being too good to participate in the Basement Bowl and compete for a bonus next league.  

As for challenge strategy being out the window because someone dropped out... that cut both ways.  It's not like it was more unfair to one person than another.


And yeah, we'll probably keep the two large divisions at the bookends of the league.  I can't see that it messed anything up, but I did ask in the league post mortem thread if anyone thought it had.

[CaptKurt]

I would say that if the challenges stay....then if anyone has a "make up" game, they are free to choose from any of the challenges.  Like Pat, I had planned my challenges for each opponent.  To suddenly throw a new opponent in there, just for a make up game, throws your plan off and is really an exception.  Maybe except for the Storm of Magic challenge....since that is kind of a freebie.

[Mordante]

Although I did not have anyone drop out that I was playing, I also planned out my restrictions ahead of time.  I agree with Kurt that you should either get to pick any restriction except the storm of magic one, or not have to take any restriction, against a replacement player with a different army.

I'd also like to see a change to the yes/no system so that there is a no/average/soft type of grading.  Not sure if it will mean much, but I think it is worth trying.

[Wolf Patrick]

ghoulking, on 30 April 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

I don't believe that anyone should ever get a free win.  

First because players pay ten bucks for 8 games.  

Secondly, with 8 games to make the playoffs, every game counts.  It's more of a slap in the face for that guy who played all 8 of his games and battled hard to get a good record... only to not make it to the playoffs because some guy had a win handed to him for free.

I understand if you don't want to give out a free win. However, my first suggestion was to have your make-up game at least come from an opponent in your division...

ghoulking, on 30 April 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

And lastly, we've handed out free wins in the past to a win-less guy because his opponent dropped out.  His record ended up being too good to participate in the Basement Bowl and compete for a bonus next league.

Ok, first off nobody wants to play in the Basement Bowl... If anything we're all playing to avoid the Basement Bowl. In fact, I never quite understood why the guy who "Wins" the Basement Bowl gets the bonus. That's like saying, "Congratulations, you were the biggest bully at the kid's table so here's some extra dessert."

ghoulking, on 30 April 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

As for challenge strategy being out the window because someone dropped out... that cut both ways.  It's not like it was more unfair to one person than another.

How does that work both ways if the make-up player wasn't even in the league? And, if that make-up player was in the league and is playing a make-up game as well, then how is that fair if they are in completely separate divisions with separate records?

Basically, that's saying that if the San Diego State football team needed a make-up game, rather than find someone in the their conference to play, they ended up playing the Chargers since they were available... Both teams would never normally play each other, but since the Chargers were available to step in, that's who they played. Oh, and a big "Thanks" go out to the Chargers for being available to step up, fill in, and kick the crap out of the Aztecs. Good luck in the playoffs!

LOL, oh and as a consolation prize the Aztecs, they may now be elligible for the Basement Bowl to be played at Cuyamaca Community College... Great seats are still available!

[ghoulking]

Wade, so you'd like a second tier added to the comp system?  Mean, average, fluffy?  We can probably do that.

Kurt, there are 8 challenges and 8 games.  If players playing a make up game got to pick from any of the challenges, including ones they might have already used, then what happens to the spare challenge?  You and I pay a make up game, I've already used #1, but I get to pick any challenge, so I pick #1 again.  Now I have 3 games remaining in the season and 4 challenges left.  I then avoid ever using the most crippling challenge for my army the entire season.  

Pat, your first point:
If a player drops out, that leaves 5 players remaining in the division.  If the judges can not find a replacement player, how do you propose they play within their division?  Play someone else in the division twice?  There are five players each looking for a game, pair them up and that leaves an odd man out still.  And what about the player who gets to play the whipping boy of the division twice?  Or the guy who has to play the division's juggernaut twice?

The Basement Bowl is intended to give people who had a rough season something to play for after the season is over.  The winner gets it because the alternative is to award it to the loser... which means you'd have the complete opposite of competitive warhammer games, with players intentionally trying to lose.

The winner of the Basement Bowl has traditionally done much better in the next league, some even climbing into the playoffs.  So it's not like winning the Bowl is insignificant.  A free win could take away the chance for that prize.

Normally, when a player drops out we try to find a replacement, that player comes in, hustles their ass off trying to get in all their make up games, and generally plays at a major disadvantage.

This season we had two players from two different divisions drop out, one of whom had partial games in.  Ideally we would have found two new players and stuck them in.  However, that was impossible, so the best thing we could manage was to pair Morr versus Myrmidia.  Myrmidia ended up sending two players to the playoffs, so I don't think they were too adversely impacted.

[Wolf Patrick]

Another suggestion I would like to make is that deciding which players move up move down in the divisons be decided after the first 5 games rather than the overall record... Tie breakers can be decided on comp and head to head matchups within the division.

This would mean that the division games mean more and if you're going to stay in the top division, you at least need to win some top division games.

[Wolf Patrick]

ghoulking, on 01 May 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Pat, your first point:
If a player drops out, that leaves 5 players remaining in the division.  If the judges can not find a replacement player, how do you propose they play within their division?  Play someone else in the division twice?  There are five players each looking for a game, pair them up and that leaves an odd man out still.  And what about the player who gets to play the whipping boy of the division twice?  Or the guy who has to play the division's juggernaut twice?

Basically, you'd have to have some faith in the division system works and that they are competitive. Also, you would hope that before a player dropped, they at least played a game or two in the division rather than commit to the league only to flake on the whole thing a week or so later. Last, it really shouldn't matter if you have to play someone else in your division twice, because we have that already happening with the brackets.

ghoulking, on 01 May 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

The Basement Bowl is intended to give people who had a rough season something to play for after the season is over.  The winner gets it because the alternative is to award it to the loser... which means you'd have the complete opposite of competitive warhammer games, with players intentionally trying to lose.

The winner of the Basement Bowl has traditionally done much better in the next league, some even climbing into the playoffs.  So it's not like winning the Bowl is insignificant.  A free win could take away the chance for that prize.

I totally get the intention of it. However, I think that most of the guys that go to the Basement Bowl would probably rather that the league just end so they can go back to the drawing board and prepare for the next league than to continue to get kicked in the ding-ding. It's like saying, "Ok you went 0-8 in the league, but you know what's worse than 0-8?... How about 0-9?"

Honestly, this type of pairing is what I think the bracket already takes care of after the first 5 games. I think that if a player didn't win a game after his first 5 games, and didn't win a bracket game after being matched up with players with similar records, then that's the guy that deserves the bonus if anyone.

Again, that's just me and thanks for responding.

[CaptKurt]

ghoulking, on 01 May 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Kurt, there are 8 challenges and 8 games.  If players playing a make up game got to pick from any of the challenges, including ones they might have already used, then what happensto the spare challenge?  You and I pay a make up game, I've already used #1, but I get to pick any challenge, so I pick #1 again.  Now I have 3 games remaining in the season and 4 challenges left.  I then avoid ever using the most crippling challenge for my army the entire season.  

Bob, that is a good point.  I don't have a good counter to that.

[Wolf Patrick]

I guess another solution to the make-up game problem would be to assign one or two alternate players before the league begins.... Basically this guy plays as the ringer, doesn't pay a fee to play, but isn't eligible for any type of reward.

The ringer or alternate players and what army they are playing could be announced at the beginning of the league so that there aren't any questions and they are free to use whatever restrictions they wish for their games.

Depending on the circumstances that a player dropped from the previous league, you could even use them in this role if they showed some promising interest to continue to play in the league...

For example, let's say that Luke dropped out of the last league, but you knew that it was a short-term issue that he had and that he would be back. Well, due to the league rules, players are banned from play for one league, however if they show that they are serious about playing in the league again they could fill in as a League Alternate for the next one and may be called to fill-in if a player dropps. Depending on how many League Alternates you have, they could be assigned to different divisions depending on the division they played in prior to dropping.

So using the same example, Luke could be your League Alternate for division Morr should any players drop in the following league.

This might sound like what you're somewhat doing now, but really what it does is establish a protocol and some controls if/when a player drops and keeps you and the other judges from scrambling around and trying to find a replacement player in that situation. It also helps the league players who would know ahead of time who and what army they would face should they have a player drop on them... Last, it eliminates the free win scenario that you're trying to avoid.... You follow me?

[Matt]

I think the best solution for make up games is:
1) If a replacement player is found, he uses whatever restrictions are left from the player he replaced.  So if he's replacing somebody who already used #1 and #2, then he has to use 3-8 for his remaining.
2) If a replacement cannot be found and a ringer is used, the ringer uses the same restriction as the person he is playing against.  The person facing the ringer should inform him of the shared restrictioning in time for lists to be made, and proper models to be brought.

Seems like the best solution for a 1-off game, and the best solution for a mid-league replacement.

-Matt

[bama]

What we could do is if a makeup game is required that the judges are the opponents. The only change would be that since the games do not mean anything to the judges that the opponents would pick the restriction for the judges to use. I don't know what y'all think about of having to play Bob, Rudy, or me instead of opponent "A" who had to miss 1 game. I hope that since the restriction would be choosen for the judges that it might balance things out.

[ghoulking]

Wolf Patrick, on 01 May 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Basically, you'd have to have some faith in the division system works and that they are competitive. Also, you would hope that before a player dropped, they at least played a game or two in the division rather than commit to the league only to flake on the whole thing a week or so later. Last, it really shouldn't matter if you have to play someone else in your division twice, because we have that already happening with the brackets.

If I were going to hope for anything it would be that no one drops out of the league.  And yes, people can play each other twice if their records after five games are similar, your scheme makes it possible for a third match.

Wolf Patrick, on 01 May 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

I totally get the intention of it. However, I think that most of the guys that go to the Basement Bowl would probably rather that the league just end so they can go back to the drawing board and prepare for the next league than to continue to get kicked in the ding-ding. It's like saying, "Ok you went 0-8 in the league, but you know what's worse than 0-8?... How about 0-9?"

Is that how people who've played in the Basement Bowl feel?  I welcome any feedback from Carlos, Tom, Gordon, Beav, Rudy, Kurt, anyone who has participated in the bowl.  Should we get rid of the Basement Bowl?

Wolf Patrick, on 01 May 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

I guess another solution to the make-up game problem would be to assign one or two alternate players before the league begins.... Basically this guy plays as the ringer, doesn't pay a fee to play, but isn't eligible for any type of reward.

We did that this league, Allan played Phil in a make-up game.  But we had two players drop out without really telling anyone, Pat, leaving us on the hook for 9 games.  Allan didn't want to play in the league, but was good enough to help us out on the odd game.

We occasionally have a player who can't fully participate in the league volunteer for any replacement games, and we take advantage of that fairly regularly.  We even draft players as replacements when we can, just ask Nick how many times I've asked him to play six games in two weeks.  

So, yes... your proposal sounds exactly like how we actually handle things.  Except two players dropped with no notice this last league.  There weren't two people who could fill in for an entire league, there aren't a lot of league alternates, we certainly can't arrange one for every division.  We try to get everyone who is interested to play.  We had to rearrange some games, draft one make-up player for a game, and the league rolled on smoothly.

[CaptKurt]

I like the Basement Bowl and vote to keep it.

[Matt]

CaptKurt, on 02 May 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

I like the Basement Bowl and vote to keep it.

Is that why you keep showing up for the basement bowl?  
IMO, it should be optional.

-Matt

[CaptKurt]

Matt, on 02 May 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Is that why you keep showing up for the basement bowl?  

I enjoy playing Kingmaker for my fellow division members.  I feel like Atlas lifting up the weight of the rest of the division.

[Nihmwit]

Quote

Ok, first off nobody wants to play in the Basement Bowl...

No offense, but where do you get off saying that?  This being my first league, I was fully expecting to be in the basement bowl, and I thought it was a nifty idea.  It lets more than just the people in the finals to keep playing something besides pick-up games.  And giving it a bit of a "gimme" prize for next league is a nice mechanic.  If I wasn't in the finals, I'd definitely want to be in the basement bowl.

[Wolf Patrick]

Nihmwit, on 04 May 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

No offense, but where do you get off saying that?  This being my first league, I was fully expecting to be in the basement bowl, and I thought it was a nifty idea.  It lets more than just the people in the finals to keep playing something besides pick-up games.  And giving it a bit of a "gimme" prize for next league is a nice mechanic.  If I wasn't in the finals, I'd definitely want to be in the basement bowl.

No offense taken.... To elaborate a bit more, I think that it is human nature that most of us want to do well regardless of our record. For example, 3 leagues ago was my first and I had a record of 2-5 going into my final game. I knew going into that game that another loss and I would have made the Basement Bowl. However, I managed to pull out a win and avoid it finishing with a record of 3-5. Call it pride if you will, but to me a record of 3-5 meant more to me since I was improving and getting more comfortable with my army.

If you expected to be in the Basement Bowl since it was your first league, that is understandable. I was in those same shoes and if I play my Bretonnians in the next league, I fully expect myself to be there. However, I still don't think that anyone starts the league hopeful to be in the Basement Bowl. Again, no disrespect to the Basement Bowl, and it is a nice touch to have those extra games to play for. However, I have yet to play a game against any player in the league that didn't try to win his games no matter how nice he was to play against and how fluffy his army was.

[CaptKurt]

@ Jeremy...I think that Pat and Matt, were pretty much making a dig at me for my 2nd appearance in the Basement Bowl....but I am here with pretty good company...Tom, Carlos & Gordon...all long standing and experienced league players.

Pat and Matt are pretty much just a little jealous, cuz all eyes are on us

[Matt]

CaptKurt, on 04 May 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

@ Jeremy...I think that Pat and Matt, were pretty much making a dig at me for my 2nd appearance in the Basement Bowl....but I am here with pretty good company...Tom, Carlos & Gordon...all long standing and experienced league players.

Pat and Matt are pretty much just a little jealous, cuz all eyes are on us

Kurt's never middle of the pack.  It's always post season for him, at one end or the other.

-Matt