24 replies to this topic

[ghoulking]

Thank you all for another great league!  I hope everyone enjoyed the format and had a good time.  This league was definitely ruled by the Ogres, and it seemed like people are still struggling to adjust to them.  Fully half of the people in the playoffs are Ogre players!  There were also a number ties in the rankings, and in one instance we had to go a sixth method to break the tie!  

The division winners are:
Division Morr - Rudy
Division Myrmidia - Cliff
Division Ranald - Drew
Division Shallya - Beav

All the Division winners win dice with the symbol of the god of their division in place of the '6' face.  All Division winners go to the playoffs.

The wildcards are:
Bob
Justin
Jeremy
Wade

First seed for the playoffs (and gets to pick his first round opponent in the playoffs) is Rudy!  Congratulations to all the playoff contenders!

The Basement Bowl players are:
Kurt
Carlos
Tom
Gordon

The Basement Bowl players will be playing for Shallya's Blessing in the next league.

The bracket winners will all receive gaming tokens, they are:
Bob
Rudy
Cliff
Jeremy
Nick
and a tie between Jason and Bama

The random pairings for the Basement Bowl and the Playoffs will be done on April 22nd.  I'll also hand out the prizes for bracket winners (and Division winners if they've arrived yet).

Who will be moving up and who will be moving down?
Next league promotions:
Cliff and Wade will move up into Division Morr
Drew and Kevin will be moving up into Division Myrmidia
Beav and Jeremy will be moving up into Division Ranald

Next league relegations:
Bama and Donovan will be leaving Division Morr
Phil and Tom will be joining Division Ranald
Carlos and Gordon will be joining Division Shallya



Post Mortem

Overall I think the format went very well.  I know there are some clarifications that need to be made to the rule pack, but the Challenge system seemed to be very well received.

Painting Restrictions -  I think the painting requirements didn't work at all, there was no way to keep track of it, and people were still playing with unprimed models at the end of the league.  I think perhaps returning to the old system, where unprimed models were unable to claim victory points from table quarters and standard would be a good way of encouraging people to get their models in some sort of paint.  Maybe unprimed models can't take standards or scenario bonus points?  Maybe give bonus points for fielding a unit with at least 3 colors on it.

Storm of Magic/Dogs of War Challenge - Didn't seem to give much impact.  I hard of a Fire Dragon showing up, but not much else.  Mostly it just got used as an escape from any restrictions at all.  Maybe if we allowed it to be an exception to the normal magic lore restrictions so people could take the caster options?  What other restrictions or bonuses could we have had for the challenges?

Splitting the 'Flex' division - I'm not sure how much of an impact this had on the league.  We have two players from Shallya and three from Morr going to the playoffs.  Maybe not having to play every single member of Division Morr meant that more Morr players were able to have better records?  Being in Division Morr is supposed to make it harder to get to the playoffs...

What do other people think?  What worked well and should be back for next league?  What do you think needs to be worked on?

[Mordante]

ghoulking, on 15 April 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

Thank you all for another great league!  I hope everyone enjoyed the format and had a good time.  This league was definitely ruled by the Ogres, and it seemed like people are still struggling to adjust to them.  Fully half of the people in the playoffs are Ogre players!  There were also a number ties in the rankings, and in one instance we had to go a sixth method to break the tie!  

The division winners are:
Division Morr - Rudy
Division Myrmidia - Cliff
Division Ranald - Drew
Division Shallya - Beav

All the Division winners win dice with the symbol of the god of their division in place of the '6' face.  All Division winners go to the playoffs.

The wildcards are:
Bob
Beav
Jeremy
Wade

The bracket winners will all receive gaming tokens, they are:
Bob
Rudy
Cliff
Jeremy
Nick
and a tie between Jason and Bama

I think there are some issues here...Beav is listed twice, once as a division winner and once as a wildcard.  Shouldn't one of those be Kevin or Justin?
And the Game Tokens, not sure what they are for, but there are only 4 divisions and there are 7 people listed.

[Wolf Patrick]

Again, I liked the format and I think it worked out well. Are you thinking of June or July for starting the Summer league?

[Mordante]

Thanks to the Judges for a running a great league.  I really liked the setup of this one.  A few comments regarding your questions:

Painting:  I think all of my opponents at least had things primed, but it would be nice to see things getting painted.  I saw lots of armies that were all primed, and had no real painted models.  A few ideas:
1.  Maybe at the start of the league, your first game defines your starting point, and you have to report how many painted units you are starting with.  On the last game you have to have at least 2 more fully painted units/monsters/etc., and report it in your last game.  If you don't you get the equivalent of a NO comp vote.
2.  Units with any unprimed models cannot capture standards or objectives, cannot gain benefit from the general's leadership, and count as -1 Ld.  Units that are not painted cannot capture standards or scenario objectives.

Challenges:   I liked them.  I need to look at the list and see how many people took the 1 wizard challenge against the dwarves...
Storm of Magic challenge: Yea that is just a freebie, although after the new Forgeworld book comes out, maybe more people will want to take creatures from it.  What about making it "you can take a unit from Storm of Magic/Monstrous Arcanum AND you can use only one of your chosen magic lores in this game."  You are giving up the lore for the option of taking a monster.

I'd request that Special characters be looked at again.  I want to keep them in because most are just fine.  But as I found out, some are just custom made to beat certain types of armies, and if you are not specifically geared up for them, you are likely very screwed.  Lord Kroak's spam casting against a combat army is a bad matchup for the other army, unless you are totally geared up for it.  When you don't know they are coming, you can't gear up for them in your list.  So I'd vote either to ban him (and other spam casters from older books, if there are any) Or make a list of these characters and make the person using them notify their opponents ahead of time that they are taking them.  Yes, I'm still a bit bitter from the most unfun game I've had of Warhammer in 8th edition (including the 3 games this weekend where I got completely wrecked each game).

Not sure about the division thing.  Maybe the size of the top division should be no bigger than any other division.

[Matt]

Thanks for the judges again for running another great league.

On painting:  Must be Primed is a horrible idea.  I started a new army for the league (which I'm doing again), and having the whole army must be primed means that I skimp on cleaning up models and mold-lines just to hit them with a can a primer.  I think that must be put together with no proxies is good; and that you must end the league with more completed units.  I'd rather see a push for real progress than half-assed finished.

As for penalties for unpainted, I'm not a fan of it on new armies.  Most of my gaming is league games, and it's kind of a punch to the stomach to have to learn a new army and be penalized during the process.

If we want to encourage progress towards fully painted armies, have opponents track unpainted units as part of the battle reporting.

-Matt

[Nihmwit]

I definitely agree with Matt's comment regarding painting, and think that Mordante's restrictions and penalties are far too severe.  As long as some kind of progress is shown, either at the end of the league, or on a by game basis, I think that will work best.  Maybe have players report changes in painting on a by-game basis, with some kind of cumulative score at the end.  But I don't agree with an in-game penalty for having unpainted models (I said unpainted, not unassembled).

Some people fully paint a single model at a time, others paint a single detail across the entire unit and work their way up.  But the difficulty in painting up an entire unit is too disparate from person to person to impose some kind of penalty.  It also smacks of favoritism to the long-established players with multiple, fully painted armies, and serves as a very unfriendly barrier to some of us newer players.  As my first league, this definitely encouraged me to paint my army, and I have gone from a two fully painted units and some characters to 60%+ of my army being painted.  But with new job and new schedules and other things getting in the way, I haven't had time to paint in close to two months.  I am also a slower painter, and while I'm fairly proud of my end-results, it takes me quite some time to get there.  Having these restrictions just encourages shoddy work and slap-dash results.

This also discourages adding custom models and conversions.  My Maneater unit is always growing; not out of any game-related desire, but because I think up an amusing new addition to the group (just finished a Cowboy to go with my ninja, pirate, the Matrix, etc).  But suddenly all that work is wasted until I find a spare week or two paint him up?  


All and all, I loved the restrictions.  I think the reason most people didn't make further use of the Storm of Magic option was simply the fact that they didn't HAVE those monsters.  Maybe something slightly less grand, like "May recruit 1 unit from another army book of your choice of not more than such-and-such point value."

-Jeremy

[heckler]

it was a nice, well-run league.

i unfortunately never got around to priming my stormvermin squad which was a workhorse for me, so i forfeit 15 bucks.

i kinda like wade's idea of painting going into breaking ties in some way. or as we discussed before this league of giving a fully painted force a +1 to the go first roll or something (or even +2 for fully painted and +1 for at least fully primed; so a non-primed vs a fully painted would be 2 difference, everything else 1 or less).

[Andy C.]

my 2 cents...

I think half of my games and 90 percent of all others ended up with a diagonal deployment zone, so I think we should adjust the deployment chart to 1-3 battle line, 4-5 blood and glory, and 6 meeting engagement.

scenario 4 (take and hold) also had some issues. I think if we keep the scenario, then we should change the rules so that units within 3" or 6" (your choice) can claim the tokens instead of having to be on top of them. the nearest unit to the token claims it and only one unit can claim a single token. this prevents slave conga lines from winning the game at the last turn.

I think only non mage lord special characters should be allowed, and no restrictions to hero characters. Lord Kroak was an interesting opponent, but Id rather not play the list again.

As for painting rules, maybe allow exemption for players who are playing an army that was one of the last 2 or 3 released. so say now VC and empire players can get away with unprimed stuff but other armies cant.

and for challenges, maybe make one like no arcane items, no units over 300 points each, rare units worth double points

[ghoulking]

Mordante, on 16 April 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

I think there are some issues here...Beav is listed twice, once as a division winner and once as a wildcard.  Shouldn't one of those be Kevin or Justin?
And the Game Tokens, not sure what they are for, but there are only 4 divisions and there are 7 people listed.

Fixed the Beav thing, Justin made it in as a Wildcard.

The 4 division winners all won custom dice with their division logo on the '6' face.

The bracket winners all won game tokens, they're wound markers, curse markers, things like that.  We give awards to the people who have the best record in their bracket at the end of the league (a bracket is the group of opponents you're matched against in the second half of the league.  So even players with a 1-4 record have something to play for in the final weeks of the league.  Nick and Patrick, for example were both out of the running for the playoffs, but still were battle for their bracket on the last day of the league.

[Mordante]

Andy reminded me of the comment on the deployment zones.  I agree that the diagonal deployment % chance should be cut down.  I had it in over 50% of my games, even though it is a 1/3 chance (strange).  I think it also works better when used in the scenario it was intended for, where the person setting up first goes first (usually), but that was not the case in the league since it was tied to other scenarios.  I'd like to see this breakdown:  
1. Diagonal
2. Battle for the pass setup and rules regarding the long sides of the table
3-4 Blood and Glory deployment zones
5-6 Battle Lines (normal 12" deployment)

I only played the take and hold mission once, and it was the most fun game of the league, came down to the last roll of the last turn.  I'd leave it, or only say you have to be touching the token rather than covering it.

I'm not sure all lord level special characters are that broken.  For example, Ikit Claw is a lvl 3 lord.  I've never seen anyone take him, not sure how he could cause the opponent to have a horrible game by showing up. Only those worthy of banning should be banned, IMO.

I can see Nihmwit's point, and the last thing we should do is to discourage new players or new armies by making the painting thing a huge deal.  But this is also a hobby that is about building and painting cool looking armies.  And I would much rather face off against a completely painted army, or if not, I want to encourage that a person spend some time cleaning their mold lines, priming and painting their army.  Lets try to come up with a way that makes a player at least get 1-2 new units completely painted by the end of the league.  That is not such a hard goal, and does not feel like it would encourage rushed paint jobs to me.

I can't really agree with Matt's statement about the priming issue though.  If the army is built, seriously how long does it take to clean mold lines?  Spend a 1/2 hour a day cleaning a unit and it should be ready to prime in 1 week.  You have 16 weeks+ in the league, the entire army from last league should be primed by the next league.  You now have probably a month and a half before the next league starts.  Figure out what you want to play, clean the mold lines and prime them before the league starts. I guess adding things to the army mid league would be an issue, and doing cool new conversions as well, since you don't want to prime a conversion until it is done, and that can take longer.  I guess there is no real good answer to this one...unless we allow some level of unprimed models.

[Kevin_Boyd]

If I decide to play my demons again then I am 100% in agreement with Andy C no special character Lord level casters if I play my lizards then I am 100% against it.  Just reinforces my point of how blanket rules are not the answer.

I thought the league was a lot of fun, ogres owned the demons. I think it is a sign of how the new books are bringing everyone's little more in line, sorry Tomb Kings and woodies you are still screwed.

I liked the challenges. as for the storm of magic I would have brought a monster it I owned the model and I better understood the scroll of unbinding rules.

next league I would like to see the battle for the pass added as suggested by Wade he and I played if the other day and it really is nice change of pace.

would like to see no restrictions on magic lores or maybe a have to use every lore once or a challenge where you can change lore to one other than the 2 chosen at start of league sort of thing.

Sending this from my phone so please excuse poor punctuation.

[Druchii Love]

I once asked the league judges what the goal was of the painting restrictions and it was, quite simply, to get people to paint models.  Lots of people, myself included, have been playing with a lot of unpainted models so I am more than willing to accept I'm part of the problem (admittedly I've been painting my non-league army...).  But even as the world's slowest painter, I can knock off a few models here and there over the course of a season.  So since the last league required at least 15 models painted & based, I suggest one full unit worth 100 points or more must be fully painted & based and fielded in each of your games or the player forfeits his entry fee.  Next league up it to two units, then three, and so on.  Vampire Counts just got a new army book so perhaps give them a waiver for one league instead requiring only assembled and primed models.  I would also add that if an army cannot meet this minimal requirement, any unit containing unpainted models does not count for any objectives/gives away double objective points.  There are a few folks who might ask for a one-time waiver (ie I know Matt just started a new army this week) but those should be few and far between.  I find the league wants to be accomodating but I also find to be friendly the league judges are overly accomodating so rarely do their penalties actually penalize anyone.  League judges - you're just too nice!

I'd also ask that the army composition rules be tightened up a bit.  However the questions are phrased, army lists should start as a "no" and have to go out of their way to earn a "yes" as opposed to now where people all seem to get a "yes".  While I know this isn't ideal and I'm sure there are a lot of better ideas; instead of asking "would you like to play the list again?", how about "was the list soft like a fluffy bunny?".  I think people will have to go out of their way to earn a "yes" with a question like that!

As always, the league is a lot of fun and I thank the judges and my opponents for putting in the time and effort.  I didn't have a single scheduling issue getting my games in this time around and that really helped.

[Andy C.]

I am curious as to why the no special character lord caster rule is as bad as its made out to be. How mant lists actually used one besides kroak?

[Kevin_Boyd]

Andy C., on 18 April 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

I am curious as to why the no special character lord caster rule is as bad as its made out to be. How mant lists actually used one besides kroak?

Andy you totally missed my point.

Blanket rules are not the answer; historically they always end up creating more problems than they solve.

So infrequently, first league I am aware of in fact,  do we see those "Special" Special Characters pop out, that when they do many are simply unprepared.  So the knee-jerk reaction is to grab the pitchforks and torches and scream "Ban it! It is Broken! Send it back to the Depths!".    

"Know thy enemy" The Art of War by Sun Tzu.

[Andy C.]

with all respect this is not a knee jerk reaction. we have not allowed teclis or fateweaver in games for certain reasons and instead of having to figure out which characters are acceptable and which are not is simple a trial and error system which will cost people games. since I don't think other players were using lord mage special characters anyway, this rule is easy to blanket. If anyone actually plans on running mannfred or skragg or ikit, then forget then lets just focus on singling bad characters out. but if noone plans on using these special charaters, then just ake them all inaccessible and nobody should mind anyway. If we just ban kroak, then who's to say someone won't start running a malekith list that's ridiculous, or perhaps an ironbrow gunline. In the end, I just don't want gimmicky games

Its not that I was unprepared for the fight with kroak, but rather my opponent ran a list that had 3 units in it, and despite my army hammering away at his, any magic phase (and especially in close combat) in which he had a much higher number of PD to my dispel, he could nuke my units again and again and again. It ended up being a really close game in the end, but the victory wasn't won by tactics.

[Kevin_Boyd]

Andy again missing my point.


But this has gone wildly off topic.

[Mordante]

I was planning to run an all Clan Skryre army next league with Ikit Claw as my general whenever the restrictions would allow.  So I'd like to just pick on the special characters that deserve to be picked on.

[Kevin_Boyd]

ghoulking, on 15 April 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

What worked well and should be back for next league?

I felt the restrictions made for a lot more interesting dynamic to the game. I know there were a couple games where I really had to think hard about how I was going to approach them.  In my first few games I did not think that much about the challenges I used, but by the last few games I was paying for that lackadaisical approach. "I only have A, B or C available, do I use A or B vs X knowing that I still have to play Y and Z!" Felt it gave the game another level of tactical thinking.  

ghoulking, on 15 April 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

What do you think needs to be worked on?

"Painting and Priming - First time league using a particular army or if that army  just received a new book that should warrant a free pass for 1 season."
I think the painting rule is fair but I also think Matt brings up a valid point about new armies. I was playing with a new army myself and did a slap-dash paint job on models just to make the restriction. The flip side of that rule is if a player has been running the same army for multiple years/seasons and still has un-primed figs then they are just s.o.l. and should take some sort of penalty.

Magic and Lores -
"If a model has a default Lore then it does not count towards Lore Restrictions."
There is Skink Lord who is a level 2 who can only uses Lore of Beasts. No Lizardman player is going to take Lore of Beasts and Heavens for a league just so they can run him and a Skink Priest.  I only use Lizardmen as an example because I can only speak for the armies I know and play but I am sure there are others out there that have the same issues.

[G-Man]

On the subject of Lord Level Special Character Casters, I brought Wurzzag da Prohet to several games. While a very nice piece in an army, there isn't anything about him that warrants him needing to be banned from a league. Using a broad brush to sweep a subsection of characters aside is overly dramatic. I'm looking at pulling my wood elves to play(Masochist I know) and your banning, would sweep out Drycha from my options. She's a Lord and only a Level 2 wizard who can only cast from arguably the worst Magic Lore(Athel Loren), does she really need to be banned because Croak cast one spell in 8 games?
If you're going to ban all Lord Level Caster Special Characters, then just ban Special Characters, otherwise make a petition to have Lord Kroak banned if he was all that busted. Having played the Kroak list, tooling your list to deal with that guy, most armies can defeat him.

[Nihmwit]

I'm actually in the process of converting some gorgers so that I can field Scrag...  Had Scrag built and everything.  Oh well.

Here's an idea for the magic lores restrictions: You may not repeat a lore used in your previous game.

For example, if you used Life in your previous game, then you must use a different lore in your next game.  The obvious issue here are armies that are required to take certain lores (Tomb Kings, Ogres, etc).  Either an exception can be made to their restriction, or the challenge only applies to their second caster.  The first caster is required to take their base lore, and then any additional casters must abide by the challenge.

Another idea for the magic lores is to make a wizard's lore choice random.  I think learning to cope with this would be alot of fun and be very unique and challenging.  Granted, as an Ogre player, I would only need to roll a D4 to find out which lore I'm using, whereas a Slann would be a bit more difficult to determine.  Still, I think would add some great variety.