14 replies to this topic

[Matt]

Tried out a coven throne today with my Lahmian vampires.
The throne looks decent on paper, but sticking your lord on it seems to risky (cannon), and sticking a hero on it seems like it's short on leadership to use the battle of wills.  I totally missed the obvious that it isn't unmodified leadership, so the correct would be give it to the hero, and keep the vampire within Inspiring presence range.

While the vampire on top didn't do so hot, the throne kept on kicking all game long.
Ld10 with Aura of Dark majesty (-1 LD for enemies within 6"), it's pretty good.  Very durable, T5 W5, 5+ armor, 4+ ward.
I did get the most awesome result once (enemy attacked itself), but not in a critical fight.

So, give it a try.  
Vampire, heavy armor, sword of swiftness, charmed shield, opal amulet, aura of dark majesty, dread knight + Coven Throne = 419.
It's 8 S5 ASF attacks, and 2D6 S3.  Kills enough to not crumble, and it's tough to kill in return.



On a side note, Add wind of Undeath to things you should fear, if you have not seen it before.


-Matt

[The Black Tyrant]

Not sure of the advantage of Dreadknight. WS8 means only WS3 and less are hitting you on 5's. Would make her also the BSB since at 400+ pts your hurting for hero points with anything else. You also need a Vampire Lord to maximize her potential. If you can keep him below 400, you can squeeze in a Necro Lord to help with casting.

[Matt]

The Black Tyrant, on 04 February 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Not sure of the advantage of Dreadknight. WS8 means only WS3 and less are hitting you on 5's. Would make her also the BSB since at 400+ pts your hurting for hero points with anything else. You also need a Vampire Lord to maximize her potential. If you can keep him below 400, you can squeeze in a Necro Lord to help with casting.

The advantage of WS8 is two fold.
1) Only getting hit on 4's by WS7 lords.  It's a pretty good measure of added survivability.
2) Most common Battle of Wills that comes up seems to be -1 WS and -1 BS.  That means that WS4 becomes 3's and hits on 5's.

Have not seen it happen yet, but if an opponent fails a fear check at the start of combat, they become WS1.  Then, just before they swing they battle of wills, and could become WS0.

If you're already taking a vampire lord, it's cheaper to make the vamp lord a level 4 (+105 points) then it is to add in a Necrolord (200 points).


Now if only I could make Banshees useful.

-Matt

[Druchii Love]

Matt, on 05 February 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Have not seen it happen yet, but if an opponent fails a fear check at the start of combat, they become WS1.  Then, just before they swing they battle of wills, and could become WS0.

Be aware in the league it has been ruled *cough*incorrectly*cough* that when circumstances like that happen, the player whos turn it is chooses the order of the effects.  So on your turn I'll be Weapon Skill '0' but on my turn I'll still be Weapon Skill '1'.

[Matt]

Druchii Love, on 05 February 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Be aware in the league it has been ruled *cough*incorrectly*cough* that when circumstances like that happen, the player whos turn it is chooses the order of the effects.  So on your turn I'll be Weapon Skill '0' but on my turn I'll still be Weapon Skill '1'.

The order of effect is very specific with the throne.  Fear tests are at the start of combat, the battle of wills is before you strike.
The thrones vampires are ASF, and the vampire lord is init 7.    If you're init 6 or less, and failed your fear, you'd be WS1 while I was hitting you, then just before you went to swing back, you'd drop to 0 (battle of wills).  The init 1 spectral hordes (guys pulling the throne) would then strike against you WS0, and auto hit with their crappy S3 attacks.

You choose sequence when circumstances happen at the same time, but battle of wills is before your attacks; putting it well after fear, goblin nets, skaven gas, impact hits, and challenges.

-Matt

[Druchii Love]

I and my Nurgle-y Chaos Knights don't disagree with you.

[The Black Tyrant]

Druchii Love, on 06 February 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

I and my Nurgle-y Chaos Knights don't disagree with you.

The whole point with the Nurgle -ws debate is, the Nurgle mark goes into affect as soon as the model comes into base to base contact. Fear checks are made after movement. So if the unit fail, it is still WS1 because the affect happened already. The coven throne, the -1WS is taken after fear checks are made, during the initiative phase.

Just one more point on the Dreadknight ability. You always have to challenge with the vampire, so that reduces the effectiveness of the coach in combat. A champion can accept, get killed by the vampire, and then the crew and ghosts twiddle their thumbs. The throne affect won't go off in combat because no one is attacking it. You might do 2 - 3 wounds and then are facing static combat rez.

[Matt]

The Black Tyrant, on 08 February 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

The whole point with the Nurgle -ws debate is, the Nurgle mark goes into affect as soon as the model comes into base to base contact. Fear checks are made after movement. So if the unit fail, it is still WS1 because the affect happened already. The coven throne, the -1WS is taken after fear checks are made, during the initiative phase.

Just one more point on the Dreadknight ability. You always have to challenge with the vampire, so that reduces the effectiveness of the coach in combat. A champion can accept, get killed by the vampire, and then the crew and ghosts twiddle their thumbs. The throne affect won't go off in combat because no one is attacking it. You might do 2 - 3 wounds and then are facing static combat rez.

The crew and the Vampire are both ASF.  In the first round of combat, I'll get impact hits.
Then 4/5 attacks from the vampire, and 4 attacks from the crew. 8 to 9 attacks, with ASF, + impact hits will usually take care of any static combat res issues.  

So far, I have not lost a round of combat that included the throne.  You may lose the 2D6 S3 spectral horde attacks, but they are fairly insignificant in a challenge.

-Matt

[The Black Tyrant]

Matt, on 08 February 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

The crew and the Vampire are both ASF.  In the first round of combat, I'll get impact hits.
Then 4/5 attacks from the vampire, and 4 attacks from the crew. 8 to 9 attacks, with ASF, + impact hits will usually take care of any static combat res issues.  

So far, I have not lost a round of combat that included the throne.  You may lose the 2D6 S3 spectral horde attacks, but they are fairly insignificant in a challenge.

-Matt

Matt, you don't get the crew in a challenge. They sit watching doing their nails. Dropping the dreadknight ability allows you to do combined charges. So if you get a challenge issued, you can have that ghoul champ step up to get punched in the face. Meanwhile you get the full allocation of attacks from the chariot into the unit. Works best with a wide enemy unit where they are forced to attack the chariot, thus triggering the Battle of Wills.

[Matt]

The Black Tyrant, on 08 February 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Matt, you don't get the crew in a challenge. They sit watching doing their nails. Dropping the dreadknight ability allows you to do combined charges. So if you get a challenge issued, you can have that ghoul champ step up to get punched in the face. Meanwhile you get the full allocation of attacks from the chariot into the unit. Works best with a wide enemy unit where they are forced to attack the chariot, thus triggering the Battle of Wills.

Page 103 says otherwise.  You're thinking 7th edition.  Dreadknight forces you to challenge, unless a higher leadership character challenges.  If you take the throne on the hero, you can combi charge with the lord and have the lord challenge.

-Matt

[Rudedog]

I'm still amazed at the things I keep learning (or re-learning)...  [p103]

[The Black Tyrant]

Matt, on 08 February 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Page 103 says otherwise.  You're thinking 7th edition.  Dreadknight forces you to challenge, unless a higher leadership character challenges.  If you take the throne on the hero, you can combi charge with the lord and have the lord challenge.

-Matt

WUUUUHHHAAAA!?!?!

[Druchii Love]

The Black Tyrant, on 08 February 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

the Nurgle mark goes into affect as soon as the model comes into base to base contact

The Mark of Nurgle only comes into play when an enemy model attacks the marked model so I don't agree with your assessment.  Nonetheless I'm not trying to dig up the discussion - the judges have made a ruling (which it is their job to do) and I've accepted it for league games.

[Krieg XXIX]

I can attest to the fact that you should greatly fear Wind of Undeath.  I thought the 7th ed version was bad ... I was quite mistaken.

[Matt]

Krieg XXIX, on 16 February 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

I can attest to the fact that you should greatly fear Wind of Undeath.  I thought the 7th ed version was bad ... I was quite mistaken.

I don't know, the 7th edition one was much easier to cast, and generated a unit that most armies had a really hard time dealing with.
Yeah, Wind of Undeath is brutal, but it's casting value matches purple sun (15+/25+), and against many armies, it isn't nearly as brutal as purple sun; nor does it generate power dice.

You can go into horde formation to limit damage from Wind of Undeath (since you take hits based on ranks), and horde formation isn't all that bad against the squishy hordes of vampire core.

What I can tell you is that the New Wind of Undeath is like a punch in the nuts to skaven slaves.

-Matt