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6th Edition Rumor Discussion


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#1 TheDirtyHippy

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 08:59 PM

Hey all,

A little birdie told me all about 6th Edition and I'm pretty excited for it!  

I was wondering what you guys were thinking of it all.  I'm gonna list the stuff that interests me in a quick summary in case you haven't gone over this yourself.

Overview

As a hoard Ork player (and former league organizer with Dallas playing :P ) I am overjoyed with the elimination of moving models 3 times to get into assault.  This will save me so much time!

Swapping the phase order of the turn is pretty major, but I don't think it will take that much time to get used to.  I will miss shooting pistols on the way in, but honestly I didn't do it that often for fear my opponent would take enough damage and fall back out of my assault range.

I hear a lot of people freaking out about Overwatch/Defensive Fire, but I must point out that you have to have that rule to use it!  It's not just there for every unit.

The return of Area Terrain!  Yay!  'Nuff said.

Moving
Moving is all fixed.  There are no more random movement rolls.  Terrain significantly limits moving, except charge moves (unless you have Move Through Cover; go Tyranids!).

Normal Move (Combat) = Movement Rate
Engage = Movement Rate, can go into CC
Cruise/Run = 2x Movement Rate
Charge = 2x Movement Rate (works through terrain)
Flat Out = 3x Movement Rate

Fleet = +2" to base movement rate
Only Fast units can move Flat Out
Star Engines = +12" to Flat Out

Bounding Leap (Calvary, Hormagaunts) = 3x Movement for Charge/Cruise/Run moves (Hormagaunts can't use fleet here).

Movement Rates

Infantry - 6"
Beasts/Calvary - 7"
Jump Infantry/Flying - 9"
Jet Pack - 6" & 2D6" consolidate jump
Bikes/Jetbikes - 8"
Eldar Jetbikes - 10" (built in Fleet) & get 2D6" consolidate jump
Ground Vehicles - 6"
Walkers - 6"
Skimmers - 8"
Artillery 3"

Flying
Units that are Airborne (Fly rather than Jump) don't have to take Dangerous Terrain tests unless they Charge into terrain (or move Flat Out for vehicles).  This is awesome for Gargoyles, Hive Tyrants, Greater Daemons, Tau Gun Drones, etc.  Not to mention the vehicles!

Assaults

There aren't terribly major change here (other than phase order).  Seems weird, but that's how I read it...  There's some big stuff, but nothing that I'd freak out about.

No Retreat wounds from Combat Resolution ignore armour.  This is especially Painful for Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons.  It's also kinda nasty for Wraithgaurd, but screw those stupid Eldar wraithbone constructs anyway.  Loyalist Marines have it way better than the chaos cult marines now.  Units can avoid the damage by taking a Morale test at -1 Ld per casualty (this effects fearless units).  Even worse, this rule effects Vehicles, but they are Ld 10 for this test.

Power weapons are good again!  Not only do they give you a 5+ invulnerable save in CC, but sarge can cause Directed Attacks at specific models.  Take that hidden power fist! (My Nob is mostly safe, you can only pick out targets if their armour save group had a wound assigned to it (so 'Ard Boyz nobz get screwed over)).

Flamers can be used in CC.  D6 hits with strength and AP of the weapon.  My Orks are not a fan!  Those IG flamers squads are murderous.  But not still as good as Burna Boyz!  Grey Knights with Incinerators will be heinous.  Oh, did I mention the obligatory Heavy Flamer on the Dreadnaught?  Take that non-MEQ armies!
-Oh, and in the codex-specific section, Pyrovores attacks ignore armour in CC rule applies to this flame attack too.  They might actually be used!

If you charge using a normal move (not the double move: Charge) and wipe out your opponent, you may shoot during the Shooting Phase!

Assault Weapons can be used as a second CCW.
Relentless models count Rapid Fire weapons as a second CCW.

Shooting

OMG.  To hit modifiers!  The world is ending!
Not really.  Everything is basically the same as before, but with this:

Vehicles & Monsters = +1 to hit
Didn't move?  = +1 to hit
Bikes/Fast Skimmers that moved = -1 to hit
Swarm = -1 to hit
Within 12"? = never worse than base to-hit (ex. BS 3 = 4+ at worst)

You can move and fire Rapid Fire weapons at full range!  Yay!  Bolters, Plasma Guns, Pulse Rifles and Gauss Flayers rejoice!  Oh, and if you're Relentless (like a Chaos Terminator) you can double-tap at 18".  

Preferred Enemy works with Shooting!  Now the Tau will throw that special character Ethereal at the enemy on purpose.  :P   I foresee the Swarmlord standing next to Hive Guard.

Flamers hit D3 enemy models inside open-topped transports and closed-topped ones too if they cover a fire point.  Toasty!

It's going to be a serious decision to buy the flamer, melta or plasma (remember, 24" range on the move!).  

Sniper Rifles cause Directed Hits, which means the firing player can choose specific models that are hit.  Go Ratlings, Scouts and Eldar Pathfinders!  Pinning weapons no longer cause units to Go to Ground; instead they cause units to be Shaken, which disallows certain moving and firing options.

Rail weapons = wow!  Mark a spot with a marker; roll to hit; if you miss, scatter the marker; Every model under the line (doesn't snipe) between the firing model and the marker is hit (cover saves apply).  This is a generic weapon type so things like Vibro Cannons, Blood Lance, etc can all use the same mechanic.  Go rail guns though.  Str 10 AP1 line of death!  (3x for Broadsides)

Bikes only effect Toughness in against Shooting, but it does affect Instant Death!

Vehicles

Tanks got beefier, but easier to hit (-1 on the damage chart for closed-topped Tanks).  In the end, that probably means lots of Shaken tanks, while Non-Tank Vehicles are gonna feel it.  We might actually see some closed-topped Battlewagons!  It also looks like you can fire heavy weapons out of fire points on the move!  That's gonna mean even more Chimeras!  The drawback is that you can only target units within 18" from inside a transport.

Vehicles all have a new rule called Multi-Targeting.  When they take damage, they lose Multi-Targeting, rather than specific weapons.  This means that the owning player can always choose from all the weapons a vehicle has, they can only shoot a certain number of them.
-Also, Multi-Targeting allows tanks to split fire.  It will be commonplace to see the Lascannon & Twin-Heavy Bolter Predator again, as it can fire it's weapons at appropriate targets once again.  This also means that vehicles with only one potent weapon (Vindicator, Hammerhead, Fire Prism) will have to be damaged multiple times before the weapon is disabled.  This is great in my opinion.  Those tanks weren't as effective as those with more guns.  This also means that you won't see Ork players buying Big Shootas just to become more survivable.  You'll see Battlewagons without any guns!
-Shaken means you can only shoot 1 weapon (firing Ordnance counts as 2).  This means again vehicles like the Hammerhead and Fire Prism are much more effective!

Meltas and other AP 1 weapons lose the +1 to vehicle damage, though they ignore the -1 for being a Tank.  Essentially, that means they lose the benefit against non-Tank vehicles.  That's pretty big in my opinion.  That means meltas don't do increased damage vs. Walkers and those pesky light vehicles like the Dark Eldar have.  They still punch armour though, so they're pretty darn good.

Repairing is better (tech-marine, mekboy):  Not only can you repair damage, but you can Bolster Weapon Systems on unharmed vehicles, increasing their Multi-Targeting value (even beyond initial value).

Vehicle Squadrons are simpler now too.  The squadron gets an Invulnerable save vs. Weapon damage and Immobilized results, but if the save is failed, you apply the result to the entire squadron.  Repairing this damage is also applied to the entire squad, so you might see a tech marine by those Land Speeder squadrons.

Vehicle explosions ignore armour and only effect you 1/6 times (exactly like Dangerous Terrain).  Oh yeah!  That levels the playing field a bit!  Those poor Nurgle marines feel it the most, I'd say.  Also, explosions happen after all combat, so you can move away and there's no confusion about it counting toward combat resolution.

If your vehicle is Fast, you can fire out of it from a 12" move (16" for Fast Skimmers).  Yay Shoota Boyz!  Those Dark Eldar Mech spam armies are gonna be flying around like the fluff says they should!

Don't freak out!  Terrain will play a huge role in this.  You can't move quickly through terrain anymore except when making a Charge move.  If your transport is in terrain, it's moving slow!  This will make for much more tactical games, I promise!  You'll see transports bottle-necking between terrain and you'll see this coming.  You'll also setup for a fast assault and have blocking units.  You won't deploy units where they'll get assaulted so easily.  This will take some getting used to!

Assaulting from Transports
You can assault out of slow moving closed-topped tanks, but you gain no benefit in movement.
You can assault out of fast moving closed-topped tanks with the Fast special rule.
You can assault quickly (double move) out of open-topped transports.

Imperial/Chaos
Rhino/Chimera moves 6"; Disembark; Charge 6"
Land Raider moves 12"; Disembark; Charge 6"
Vendetta/Valkyrie moves 8"; Disembark; Charge 6"
Storm Raven moves 16"; Disembark; Charge 6"
Storm Raven moves 16"; Disembark; Charge 9" (Jump Infantry)
Land Speeder Storm moves 8"; Disembark; Charge(double move) 12"

Dark Eldar
Raider/Venom moves 8"; Disembark; Charge(double move) 12"/16" (w/Fleet)

Eldar
Wave Serpent/Falcon moves 8"; Disembark; Charge 6"/8" (w/Fleet)

Orks
Trukk moves 6"/7"(red paint); Disembark; Charge(double move) 12"/16" (w/Fleet)
Battlewagon/Looted Vehicle(open-topped) moves 6"/7"(red paint); Disembark; Charge(double move) 12"/16" (w/Fleet)
Battlewagon/Looted Vehicle(closed-topped) moves 6"/7"(red paint); Disembark; Charge 6"/8" (w/Fleet)

Tau, Tyranids, Necrons
Doesn't apply
:P

Ramming
Ramming is much simpler.  Basically, both vehicles take penatrating hits!  The damage roll is modified down based on how much armour you beat the opponent by.  (Ex. Trukk with Reinforced ram hits a Lemun Russ; the Russ takes a Penatrating hit at -2 because it has armour 14 vs. the trukk's effective 12 (+2 from the ram)).

Also, Tank Shock and Ram are the same thing now.  If you ram a smaller unit, they can consolidate 6" to get out of the way.  If they don't make it clear, it's an automatic wound with no armour save per model that is hit.  (They still check morale first)

#2 Idolator

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:06 AM

Wouldn't that Trukk assault be more like this.

Trukk moves 12"/14", disembark, 12"/16" asssault move.

Trukks is supa quik (fast) fer gettin boyz stuk in.

The open topped battle wagon and looted wagon would be move 6"/7",disembark, charge 12"/16"

HOT WAGON ASSAULT!!!!!

That was how I read it.
I possess a near superhuman ability to not give a crap. But, who cares?

#3 iDaemon

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:55 PM

I dunno if the rules are real or not, but I'm pretty sure the premise is correct: faster play means bigger armies, bigger models (just like fantasy). Not quicker games...

#4 King Rugam

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 01:16 PM

DOOOOOM well I guess my world eaters will just collect dust even more then now....too bad I have to take an HQ guess he will just die even faster then before.  So assaulting out of a Rhino?  Mixed fealings about that.  Now movement....there gose my raptures.  Uou know what when I get home im going to post what I think chaos willl look like after these rules come out.  Then again these are just rumors.
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#5 TheDirtyHippy

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 02:31 PM

View PostIdolator, on 24 January 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Wouldn't that Trukk assault be more like this.

Trukk moves 12"/14", disembark, 12"/16" asssault move.

Trukks is supa quik (fast) fer gettin boyz stuk in.

The open topped battle wagon and looted wagon would be move 6"/7",disembark, charge 12"/16"

HOT WAGON ASSAULT!!!!!

That was how I read it.

"Open-Topped" allows for a "Charge" or "Run" move.  
I can't see anywhere it says that Fast Vehicles allow for a Disembark after any move faster than Combat.  
On page 123 the rules for Disembark have no stipulation for Fast vehicles.
"Assault Vehicle" does, that's why the Land Raider and Storm Raven have higher move rates than everything else.

Fast let's you SHOOT while moving faster (page 54) and allows for Flat Out moves.
This applies to passengers as well, do the Boys can get thier dakka on after moving 12".

#6 Just Brian

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 02:39 PM

Interesting changes, if only there was a set date on 6th's release. Then I consider waiting for it to release before I get back into 40k.

#7 TheDirtyHippy

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 02:42 PM

View PostKing Rugam, on 24 January 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

DOOOOOM well I guess my world eaters will just collect dust even more then now....too bad I have to take an HQ guess he will just die even faster then before.  So assaulting out of a Rhino?  Mixed fealings about that.  Now movement....there gose my raptures.  Uou know what when I get home im going to post what I think chaos willl look like after these rules come out.  Then again these are just rumors.

Assaulting 6" out of a Rhino that moves 6" is the same as assaulting 12" out of a stationary one.
It's actually less tactically flexible, as you have the Rhino only move half as fast as it could if the embarked unit got out first.
Heh.  If my previous post is correct, Blood Angels get no benefit from Over Charged Engines on the turn they assault.

I wouldn't give up on the World Eaters just yet.  First of all, Rhinos are going to be even harder to kill (especially with Daemonic Possession) and second the rumor is that Chaos Legions will be the next codex.  ;)
I would probably get a Land Raider for them though (if they don't have one already).

#8 TheDirtyHippy

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:33 PM

View PostKing Rugam, on 24 January 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

DOOOOOM well I guess my world eaters will just collect dust even more then now....too bad I have to take an HQ guess he will just die even faster then before.  So assaulting out of a Rhino?  Mixed fealings about that.  Now movement....there gose my raptures.  Uou know what when I get home im going to post what I think chaos willl look like after these rules come out.  Then again these are just rumors.

I'm curious how these rules will make your HQ die faster.  
The only thing that I can think of is the Directed Hits rule.
As long as he has Chaos Armour and is part of a unit of Berzerkers, he's safe from Directed Hits.

#9 TheDirtyHippy

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:40 PM

The more I think about the movement change, the more I like it.  I've played a lot of games in the last 3 editions where it all came down to one player rolling double 1's and failing a charge.  It's just so frustrating when that happens to your unit.  It's almost always a game change changer.  I'll be happy to see that go away.

#10 solarisp91

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 08:23 PM

You forgot to mention the new reserve rules! Web ways actually become potent portals of nonconsensual love making face.

Oh and "Flyers" rules um yes please. Always thought it was ridiculous that an ork with a power fist could face slap a Storm Raven and take it out. From what I have heard and read so far, if these rules are legit, I might actually start to like playing this game... Maybe


;)

#11 Just Brian

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 08:34 PM

View Postsolarisp91, on 24 January 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

You forgot to mention the new reserve rules! Web ways actually become potent portals of nonconsensual love making face.

Oh and "Flyers" rules um yes please. Always thought it was ridiculous that an ork with a power fist could face slap a Storm Raven and take it out. From what I have heard and read so far, if these rules are legit, I might actually start to like playing this game... Maybe


;)

You make it sound like Orks wouldn't be crazy enough to find a way for this to happen :P

#12 solarisp91

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 08:49 PM

You have a point.  :D

#13 Matt

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 01:07 AM

Is it just me, or do pistols suck?

-Matt

#14 TheDirtyHippy

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:54 AM

View PostMatt, on 25 January 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Is it just me, or do pistols suck?

-Matt

They're definitely not as good as before without the ability to shoot before charging.  You can use some pistols in HtH; a Plasma Pistol can be used at Str 7 AP 5.  The AP doesn't make any sense to me...

I've had a long standing gripe with plasma pistols.  They cost 15 points, just like like a plasma gun.  When you compare a plasma pistol to a melta gun, the melta wins out, hands down, with better STR and AP for 10 points (plus it won't kill you).

This document is definitely not final.  The timestamp on the file is from May 2011, so it's definitely pretty outdated from the actual 6th edition rules.

Here's what I think will happen with pistols (pure speculation/wish-listing):
You can use pistols in HtH, but with a restricted number of shots.  Instead of taking your +1 attack, you can opt to make that attack with a pistol instead (full STR and AP apply).  Most of the time, you'll just roll all the dice together, but sometimes you'll split it up.  You'll still use WS for these attacks (that makes logical sense to me; pistols are really CC weapons in 40k).

Ex. Marines vs. Tau - Effectively the same; roll together
Ex. Marines vs. IG - Use the pistol; it has AP that beats flakk armour
Ex. Orks (non-charging) vs anything; split your pistol attacks (orks being Str 3)
Ex. Dark Eldar Wyches would split their splinter pistol attacks against anything Toughness 4+, as the pistols are poisoned

That makes plamsa pistols and inferno pistols great upgrades.
I bet there might even be a special stipulation for models armed with dual pistols to make all of their attacks with pistols, like Seraphim.  Then you'll see people buying 2 plasma pistols for characters, which would be pretty badass IMHO.

#15 Just Brian

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:16 AM

View PostTheDirtyHippy, on 25 January 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

I bet there might even be a special stipulation for models armed with dual pistols to make all of their attacks with pistols, like Seraphim.  Then you'll see people buying 2 plasma pistols for characters, which would be pretty badass IMHO.

Until people start rolling 1's and they make changes to Gets Hot! so that it's a small blast rather then a single hit to the target. Then it'd just be funny ;)

#16 King Rugam

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:30 AM

View PostJust Brian, on 25 January 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Until people start rolling 1's and they make changes to Gets Hot! so that it's a small blast rather then a single hit to the target. Then it'd just be funny ;)


Lolololol ROLL THEM 1'S WOOT WOOT.

I would so give them all pistols that atleast 3 Plasma Pistols per 10 man squad, 3 5 man chosen, and 3 5 man havocs, and don't forget about the 3 5 man Raptors.  That's alot of plasma pistols.
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#17 TheDirtyHippy

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:14 AM

View PostJust Brian, on 24 January 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Interesting changes, if only there was a set date on 6th's release. Then I consider waiting for it to release before I get back into 40k.

July 14th, says Bell of Lost Souls

#18 Just Brian

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:41 PM

View PostTheDirtyHippy, on 25 January 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

July 14th, says Bell of Lost Souls

Bah, that's not soon enough for my impatienceness(?). I've already ordered models for a new 1k Iron Warriors list.

#19 Matt

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:06 PM

Hopefully pistols will have some use.  Right now they are sucktastic.  Paying premium price for what equates to at best 1 S4 attack and half ranged half assed shooting just doesn't cut it.
Mostly I hope they are better because I'm building my army with them, because they look cool.

-Matt

#20 Wolf Patrick

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 01:49 PM

They're not sucktastic, but in most cases anything beyond the simple bolt pistol just isn't worth the points cost imo...

The pistol grants you a 2nd close combat attack and some marines like Grey Hunters can have a pistol/close combat weapon plus a bolter or support weapon. If the rumored rules hold up I would imagine that pistols would have the same effect that they do now except like Shane says, you won't be able to shoot on your way into hth.

Personally, I'm not so sure that those rumored rules will hold up with the sequence order changing. Could it happen? Sure. However, I think the rumored rules give a lot more survivability to the transport vehicles that they didn't have before. If your units can't reach and crack the armor of a rhino in an assault, you're going to have a hell of a time playing against most future Space Marine armies. In today's game, this can be mitigated by shooting the transport open first.

I think you will see some of these rules in 6th edition, but the rumored rules change the game so much that I think it will seem overwhelming to a lot of players trying to get into it and I don't think that is GW's style... Historically, they try to streamline and speed up the game to entice you to play with larger armies and more figures. So, we'll see... I was aprehensive when the 8th edition of WH Fantasy came out and I've grown to love that.
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