20 replies to this topic

[The Black Tyrant]

My link

Have patent, will sue? I guess only one company can use a laser to cut custom shapes to hold miniatures....

[Wolf Patrick]

I just ordered a new Battlefoam 720 bag for my Space Wolves...

I will say two things: First, I wouldn't start any type of forum board protest without knowing all the facts. If Sabol is not doing laser cutting in their foam, then I don't see where they have any reason to worry as that is what the patent is for.

The second is that right now in my opinion, Battlefoam has a better product. Nothing against Sabol as it has been around for a while now, but it just isn't the same.

[Paco]

It's the same thing they tried to pull on Outrider Hobbies.  It is blanket IP protection really.  the OH case was thrown out because it was spurious at best, seeing as the case was built around a confused customer who was actually a regular customer of Battlefoam's predecessor company. I am thinking BF is trying to protect what it sees as its IP from competitors (much like GW does).  If you have a product similar to theirs, they will sue for infringement to show how rigorously they are protecting their property.

All of that said, Sabol doesn't do laser cut foam, and has been around longer than Battlefoam.  I believe this case will be thrown out.

[Paco]

So I read the C&D and it relates to Sabol selling Battlefoam products.  A quick look around the Sabol website and they sell nothing remotely close to Battlefoams product (other than the pluck foam trays, which sabol has been selling for years).  It appears to be nothing more than legal strong-arming the competition.  boo on them. boo.

[Pyrian]

Paco, on 31 August 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

It's the same thing they tried to pull on Outrider Hobbies.

It appears to be literally the same thing.  As in, the injunction is regarding sales of an Outrider Hobbies product.  ...Which I'm not sure Sabol even sells?

[The Black Tyrant]

Sabol does the Army Transports.

Just rubs me the wrong way in regards to US patent procedures in general. Companies either patenting very common practices or patenting very open ended ideas that can be applied to wide swathes an industry. Both are used to stifle competition or inhibit innovation. The later normally when a patent holder has no idea how to make his patent work and is waiting for another individual to invent it so they can sue them for royalties.

There are entire companies that are devoted to owning nothing more than patents so they can sue companies that infringe on their patents. They are commonly refereed to as Patent Trolls.

It is bullying competitors and nothing more. They wouldn't try it against any major package manufacturer because  1) it could simply prove standard industry practice before the patent was filled 2) they have better paid lawyers.

[Paco]

Sabol has been selling army transports for years before Battlefoam came around.  They use the pluck-n-pull type foam which has been around forever.  Battlefoam, though it sells pluck-n-pull trays, has a patent "pending" (read, it does not even have a patent, it could be rejected for being vague or already patented) on laser-cut foam trays.  They even mention on the Battlefoam website that they make trays for Sabol products.  seems like they are jsut being bullies trying to edge out the competition.

[bartschy]

Guys they are all competing buisnesses using there patents is part of doing buisness,
actually getting and maintiaing patents is fairly expensive so I don't blame them that they want to get their mony out of their IP.

This is not like GW beating up their fans from enjoying and expanding their hobby, they just keep the
competition from stealing their inovation which is fair game IMHO.

[Paco]

It is true they are competing businesses, but this is kind of a scuzzy move.  In reading the thread at TGN, it appears these letters are designed to maximize Battlefoam's damage period if a case actually does go to trial.  They can say, "hey we sent a cease and desist on this date! They were knowingly infringing on our patents."  It is designed to scare the competition as well trying to get them to stop selling their products.   It is the latter that is scuzzy.

[The Black Tyrant]

bartschy, on 31 August 2010 - 04:53 PM, said:

Guys they are all competing buisnesses using there patents is part of doing buisness,
actually getting and maintiaing patents is fairly expensive so I don't blame them that they want to get their mony out of their IP.

This is not like GW beating up their fans from enjoying and expanding their hobby, they just keep the
competition from stealing their inovation which is fair game IMHO.

The problem is they are using a "patent pending" as basis of the letter. Also, I feel the patent is weak and trying to claim invention of a procedure that has been used in other industry for several years now.

Also if your curious, here is the patent app.

[Joda]

I work for a family business that has 7 patents, all of which are designs invented by the owners.  It's true patents are very expensive & very expensive to upkeep, but their financial gain for something that is in demand is enormous!  Now Battlefoam may not have invented the pluck & pull, though I do believe they invented the laser cut, but they can spend the money & try to patent the pluck & pull.  I don't think the application is revolutionary enough to patent for the pluck & pull, but laser-wise they may have something.

All in all, Battlefoam seems extremely underhanded/ruthless... others may argue that makes them good business men.  How's the saying go, nice guys finish last.  Just by looking at the various sites for foam trays, one can see Battlefoam seems to have a larger financial backing then its' competitors, hence why they can afford the Patent which would demolish their competition, gotta love capitalism!

[Paco]

true, nice guys do finish last, especially in business.  The problem is, I highly doubt battlefoam was the first company to laser cut foam.  Perhaps for the purposes of storing little plastic people, but not in total.  The major prior art argument is from handgun and rifle cases.  They, being gun case manufacturers, have been laser cutting foam for gun cases for years and years.

[Joda]

I work for a company that has about 10 patents & here's the thing, Battlefoam's Patent is pending.  There's some gray area on a Cease & Desist letter for a pending patent because you don't technically have one yet.  From what experience I have in regards to patents, I'd think BF has a case for the laser cut stuff, but the pluck & pull seems a bit too simple for a patent.  For example, in our product we added two rollers & replaced the closing mechanism, which was a pipe with a spring in it, with a push-button lock mechanism.  We applied for a patent for the rollers & lock, but were only granted the patent for the lock mechanism.  Who knows though, the patent office recently granted a patent to a competitor for the rollers, even though we previously applied for the same thing & were not granted one...  it's the government, they screw up all the time...

I recently used a Sabol transport to go to Gen Con & to be honest I was a little disappointed.  I carried it on.  Worked great on the way there, but on the way back an elephant & chariot were damaged.  The elephant is ok, his head now has a slight lean, but didn't break.  I the chariot's yoke with the horses had broken off, so I had to bend both chariot horses back into position & re-glue the thing, plus bend the javelin rack back.  In the future I think the top tray will stay pluck free to be used as extra padding.

Even with what happened I'll stick with Sabol, due to cost (BF $ is GW like... outrageous), & seems the Battlefield dude, Romeo is slightly off his rocker...  In the past he's defended GW price increases, also bad for business.  As a sales guy, shoot as anyone with a little business sense, the only company you ever defend for price increases is your own.

All this being said, as gamers we love our hobby & we like to think of the companies as extensions of hobbies.  They are businesses, the ones run more like a business, than a hobby always do better, see GW, Fantasy Flight, & yes BF for example.  While Sabol provides a similar product to BF, BF has expanded leaps & bounds over the last few years.  Sabol, not so much...

[Mordante]

Now that everyone has jumped all over BF's #$%&, with only one side of the story, here is a followup report on TGN with BF's response...
http://www.tabletopg...010/08/31/38889

I'm not defending BF, I just think it is funny how people jump to conclusions so easily with limited info at best.

[Paco]

Given the way they acted over the outrider situation, the reaction does seem warranted, though. Their credibility has been tainted by a)blatantly trying to use a foreign venue to out cost Outrider (BF tried to get the case in NH even though both parties were in AZ) and b)falsifying evidence (the key person who tripped the "confused customer" case was a previous customer of BF and BF used quotes from him on an affiliated company's webpage).  Regardless of what they say, the prior evidence shows that they are really just trying to put Outrider out of business through legal strong-arming.  The letter was more to say to Sabol, don't sell Outrider stuff or stuff that works with outrider stuff or we will sue you for patent infringement.

[The Black Tyrant]

This got me riled up more because I see it as a weak patent and using it to help stifle competition. It has a lot of what I think is wrong with the US Patent system.

The US Patent Office is one of the most overburdened government office in the country with massive turnover rates. Average employee retention is only 6 months. Arbitrary ideas are allowed to be patented and then used to club industries over the head. What was meant to a method to incentive innovation is instead killing it.

And if you don't think it is stupid, next you get in line for anything, remember this. IBM owns the patent on that organization strategy.

[Joda]

Well, I was kind of right, they're only going for the laser cut patent.

Still a bit iffy in my opinion.  I mean if you can patent cutting foam, just because you cut it with a laser instead of a blade, why can't mini manufacturers patent making plastic, or resin miniatures?  In the end your getting a miniature, just made of differently, using a different process/material.  Just like foam-wise, in the end your getting cut foam, just cut differently.

[tmr]

This is amateur hour – you want to see battle royal over patients and other predatory practices look at the Microsoft over the OS or even locally with Qualcomm and Nokia over CDMA. This is make even GW look like little kids after I read this I had a good laugh. Then I started to wonder if anyone had patented the specific laser cutting technique using a infrared or ultraviolet laser or maybe using a different physics like using a liquid, solid or plasma laser? So I think I’ll use that old patient form and counter-patient using a Class 4 laser to get some real power behind the cutting….

[Reecius]

The battlefoam guys invested a lot of time, effort and energy into designing their products and then marketing them. They have every right to try and aggressively defend what they have built.

I agree with Pat, Battlefoams products are superior by a large margin. Sabol stuff is good, I have 4 of their bags, but Battlefoam is just a long way ahead of the competition.

[tmr]

The way to protect your investment is continue to provied a product with good customer service - that meets the needs of the market at a resonable price.

There is a ROI when you buy these bags - if I've gone off and spent thousands on models that have been painted to a golden demon standard I would may buy custom battlefoam where every model had its own personnal space. By the same token, I may have a nice game quaility army that is built to get knocked around and Sabol or like product may work fine for its transport.

But to try and corner this small niche by patienting the use of a lasar manufacturing process is like trying to patient the bending sheet metal for trays. The fact is its more about barrier to entry then it is anything else.  

And for the record I think foam in general is still to hard I've notice that when i use any of the foams, Sabol or Battlefoam (i have both) the edges of my models get worn down. So if you want to build the killer app transport it needs the rigidity of form with some kinds of soft lining like a cotton like material hand woven by trainee witch elfs in a full moon. Sure that would be really expensive since that will entail hand labor to install but for my models nothing but the best.

anyway interesting discussion... is seems the physics of business are the same whether your a Microsoft or Battlefoam...

tr

Reecius, on 17 September 2010 - 07:46 PM, said:

The battlefoam guys invested a lot of time, effort and energy into designing their products and then marketing them. They have every right to try and aggressively defend what they have built.

I agree with Pat, Battlefoams products are superior by a large margin. Sabol stuff is good, I have 4 of their bags, but Battlefoam is just a long way ahead of the competition.